This interview is rated purple for 'epic'. In this in-depth interview, Pitchford not only reflects on the development and transitions Borderlands underwent, but also about the current trend towards RPG-shooters, how marketing affects game sales and even lays his cards on the table in the ("irrelevant") games as art debate. Enjoy.
IGN AU: Hey Randy, good to speak with you. First of all, Borderlands looks great – and for the third day of a three-day media tour, the team demoing the game is happy - they're happy and laughing and having a great time. It's a little bit Twilight Zone-esque in there.
Randy Pitchford: [laughs] Well, it's because the game's pretty much done now; we're shipping in October, so we didn't make a demo to show – we just brought the game! But yeah, they're totally going off-script; Steve [Gibson] and I trade off and we're just having fun.
IGN AU: It's a good sign though, when demoing the game after three full days is not a labour.
Randy Pitchford: I'll tell you, of all the games we've made at Gearbox over the years, it's only happened maybe two or three times. Usually when we finish a game and we're at the end, we're sick of it. We want to put it in the box and be done with it. But with Borderlands, it's actually become a productivity sink at Gearbox, because we're just having fun. And it's because the game's so dynamic and unpredictable; there are so many things that are different each time you play it. And I used to ask myself --well, have you played World of Warcraft?
IGN AU: Me? Yeah, of course. Does it show that badly?
Randy Pitchford: Well, I used to wonder if the Blizzard guys get hooked on this the same way we do. And you know what? We kind of found out. Even though we know all the stuff, we still want to get the gear and level up our character – and it's the loot that does it.
IGN AU: It's a perfect segue because I think there is this type of gamer out there. Too Human didn't get a whole lot right, but it really nailed the loot drops system. What is it about gamers' minds that attracts them to 'loot'-oriented games?
Randy Pitchford: Ha, I don't know – we like to own stuff, maybe? But I do know this: I know that I played about 300 or 400 hours of Diablo, and I know that Diablo fundamentally has no skill to it! [laughs] No seriously, the skill I use to play the game is the exact same skill I use to launch the application! I put a cursor on an icon and I click on it.
The compulsion of 'oh – I'm gonna go up one more level' or 'dude, this sword is awesome – but I gotta go up two levels before I can use it', there's so much compulsion to the looting and the equipment and the levelling up.
IGN AU: It's addictive. It's a little bit like gambling in that way.
Randy Pitchford: Yeah, but in shooters it's the exact opposite, right? The Master Chief and Gordon Freeman are exactly the same at the end of the game as they are at the beginning of the game - but it doesn't matter. In a shooter, it's the moment-to-moment fun; it feels good to move and to shoot a guy's leg off – and I don't know, maybe it's because we all have this hunter/gatherer thing in us and we can't do that anymore. So instead we get that in the game!
IGN AU: Well, the crazy thing that I kept coming back to during the Borderlands demo was the game, after being reskinned, has shot into the spotlight. I mean, the game itself hasn't changed.
Randy Pitchford: The design itself is identical, isn't it? Isn't that interesting?
IGN AU: Yeah, completely. What does that say about gamers, their tastes or fickle natures?
Randy Pitchford: I think it says a couple things, because it happened to me too. I didn't make the decision – some artists had an insurgency at our company, I'm not kidding. I mean, they really did. In 2008, the role-playing-shooting stuff was working, but we made the decision to push the game out to make it bigger. We added a character class, instead of having a linear mission structure, we added 100 side-missions and made the world really big so we could just explore, have discovery, choice and growth.
That decision was expensive, so to do this we had to push the game out to the end of 2009. But we made the decision and the artists were like, "well, what are we going to do?" So a few of them went back and looked at their concept art and kinda said "well, we're not going to compromise either, then. We're going to try to build the game the way we wanted it to look."
I didn't know they were doing this, and I caught wind that they were up to something. I made a deal with one of the owners [and Art Director] of Gearbox, Brian Martel, who was kind of leading this insurgency, and I said "dude, what are you doing? We're in production! Can I even see it?"
IGN AU: So you were getting protective.
Randy Pitchford: I was getting protective of the fact that I don't want to go outta business! [laughs] Well, it's very expensive, what we do. You spend tens of millions of dollars to develop this stuff and it's a big risk. So we're in production, and I'm saying "well, can I see it, at least? You're changing all of the art in the game!
IGN AU: You'd think just maybe, as President, you might be entitled to that. Maybe.
Randy Pitchford: Right. And Martel said, "look, we're not ready yet; we're not doing anything invasive – we've got a small group of guys who are trying something out." And we made a deal – I gave him three weeks to deliver a prototype before I made a decision. So he spent three weeks and they built the prototype – a little vignette that could show off whatever he was doing and what it would look like.
And I remember he set up a meeting to show me in a conference room –and Brian left town! ...Maybe he was afraid of me or something, I don't know. [laughs] And I show up to this meeting and I'm thinking "okay, if I agree to what he's showing me, I'm going to need to redo all of the art in the game. So I'm shutting this down. I'm shutting this the hell down and I don't know what it is, but these guys are crazy and it shouldn't have gone on this long, but if I stopped them earlier I'd crush their souls... but now they're more invested, so now I'm going to have to crush their souls even more!
It was bad.
And then I saw it. And I was like, 'holy shit! I've never seen anything like it!'
IGN AU: But wasn't it unusual for them to not show you this earlier? Or discuss it with you? Or was it a case of just putting faith in their abilities?
Randy Pitchford: Look, we have a lot of creative people; I'm not a dictator –we are a team of awesome, creative people and there's all kinds of crazy guys who do their thing. We get a vision and we move that vision together. But here's the thing – what they did was the concept art.
They had built the concept. But what had happened was – well, you know when automobile makers are making concept cars, and the concept cars are so cool and awesome – and then we never get to drive them! They never build them! We were doing the same thing! We had all this awesome concept art with style and attitude, but all the game's looked alike. So these artists weren't going to stand for it. So they had their insurgency and they won.
IGN AU: I think there are a few little takeaways in there for other developers, really. ...Assuming Borderlands is successful, I guess.
Randy Pitchford: Yeah – we haven't been measured yet, have we?
IGN AU: Well, that's it – but is that how you measure the success of a game? Whether you stay in business or not? Or is it about accomplishing personal goals and satisfying players?
Randy Pitchford: Well, the way I measure it is through two components: how many people did you reach? And how much did you gratify them? So that's the measure of an entertainer. You're entertaining – so it's how many you entertained and how much you entertained. That's it.
But yeah, it's relative to your goals too.
IGN AU: That's it. And especially in first-person shooters, sometimes it feels like the goal posts keep moving. Somebody says "this is the future." And someone else turns around and says, "well, actually, this is the way forward."
Randy Pitchford: Yeah, yeah. [laughs] The reality is, it's entertainment. There are a lot of futures. I read a little while ago about Cliff Bleszinkski's answer to this question and Cliff said the future of shooters is RPGs. And I'm like, wow, we're there.
IGN AU: On that, Borderlands isn't afraid to disguise its RPG backbone. Things like the damage points actually popping up on-screen when you're shooting someone, for instance.
Randy Pitchford: I think there's some value to that. They're subtle; they fade away. But when you need them, you can tell. You can see your critical there, or when you're doing 16 points of damage – let me try this other gun; oh wait – now I'm doing 18 points; that's even better. And you can see, when you throw a grenade and it lights someone on fire and they're running and screaming, you can see all the red numbers popping up -5,5,5,5...
IGN AU: Do you think many developers are scared of showing that kind of framework?
Randy Pitchford: We were, so definitely.
IGN AU: Why?
Randy Pitchford: I dunno.
IGN AU: Is it because developers talk down to players a lot of the time?
Randy Pitchford: I dunno! It's hard to say. I mean, does it break immersion?
IGN AU: But does it matter in a game like Borderlands?
Randy Pitchford: Well, it does – but we haven't broken it. We get sucked into it and we love our game. The thing is, look – you're not going to trick anyone. You're playing a video game. You are actually playing a video game and you're not actually there. Video games are supposed to be fun, and there's a system there and you kinda got to know how it works. But at the same time, the way we did that [the damage numbers] shows how you can expose some of that stuff without necessarily taking you out of that experience.
If you've never seen that before, your first impression might be "whoa, that's interesting – they're showing the numbers." But then you play the game for ten minutes and it's totally natural.
Another thing that's interesting is that a lot of RPGs – the first thing you do before you even get into things – is that you make decisions about what skills you're gonna have and what your character's going to be like - and you don't even know what you're going to be tested on yet. So Borderlands does the opposite. It begins with simple choices, and as you play we build that out. The world opens up, the choices open up and it's a big connected world where you can choose your path. And you can also just follow the path too – because we know there's the shooer guy out there who's used to the linear experience. If you want to, you can just follow the waypoint from mission to mission. You don't even need to read the mission text.
IGN AU: But they'd be missing out, of course, because the game is hugely funny.
Randy Pitchford: It's good stuff. There's good content in there.
IGN AU: On that, do you think that a lot of shooters and action games simply lack that sense of humour? Does the genre take itself too seriously?
Randy Pitchford: Yeah, I think if we take ourselves too seriously, you're denying some of the fun in the game. But it depends on what you're pitching. And we also make the Brothers in Arms series – and we do that that extremely seriously, because that's based in reality; stuff that actually happened. But I really think it depends on what your goals are.
They are video games, so at some level, video games have to be fun! [laughs]
IGN AU: So if you're genuinely being entertained and it works, that's one thing. But how do you feel about when you're constantly being 'shown' to by games, bombarded by these titles that really want you to think that the story is the next-big-thing and the script is Oscar-worthy?
Randy Pitchford: Sometimes we do derive some entertainment when we 'appreciate' something, and sometime we feel something when we're moved. So a lot of game makers want challenge themselves with "can I move someone?" or "can I get them to respect me as an artist?" And a lot of developers have this complex; they struggle with 'are games art?' – and it's an irrelevant debate. It doesn't matter. I mean, of course there's art in video games – duh. But why are you insecure?
IGN AU: Does that bother you? The pretension out there?
Randy Pitchford: Umm, no – but if you're not careful, you can be injured by it. There are times when you can take yourself seriously and there are times when you can cut loose. It really depends on your goals and it depends on what you're promising the customer. If you're promising customers a heavy experience and you throw in a bunch of one-liners, it doesn't work.
Taking ourselves out of the gaming industry, if I watch a drama and it has a bunch if Arnold Schwarzenegger one-liners in there, it can really ruin it! On the other hand, if I'm watching a big-ass action film with if Arnold Schwarzenegger and it doesn't have the one-liners in there, then where's the fun?
IGN AU: Unrelated to any of that, I'm just curious about what you think about the state of 'games journalism'. Is it something you pay much mind to outside of a scenario like this?
Randy Pitchford: We're getting better; we're growing up! I mean, there's new people entering it all the time, but just like game makers are getting better and better at it, so are other folks. In the information age, anyone can have a website – so that's interesting –and everybody has an opinion and can type stuff and publish it.
Increasingly, I notice that games journalists are being held accountable when they're not doing a good job, too. That's really neat. It's just a world full of people; people shout off opinions and if other people want to, they listen. If not, they flush it.
IGN AU: And does work like this shape morale in the team? Do you take the feedback seriously?
Randy Pitchford: Oh absolutely. It's the sum of our offering that creates the result. There are games with very few features that are just so elegant and beautiful and wonderful – we applaud them. So we don't win by just stuffing features in our game. But we win by entertaining our customer – and usually, when we entertain our customer, the critics are also entertained and have a good time.
There are a couple of things that can happen that are anomalous. Sometimes, a game can be reviewed well and then not sell well –and that's because the promise isn't something that can reach a mass-market, but the quality of what they offer is really there. That's troubling.
IGN AU: Is that a failing of marketing?
Randy Pitchford: No... well, sometimes.
IGN AU: Are they marketing Borderlands the right way for you?
Randy Pitchford: I hope so. And I think the promise is strong and simple. You can consume it easily. The things that tend to be hard there are things where the promise isn't easy to consume.
One of my favourite out there – I mean, I love Tim Schafer and Psychonauts – and I was horrified by how badly it sold. But it made sense to me because, well, what the hell's a 'Psychonaut'? And what's the genre? And I bought it because I know who Tim Schafer is and I believe that if I get this, I'm going to have a good time. But we're not at a point yet when we can sell games based on the creator.
The creator is part of the promise, but only to the folks who are really plugged in. So the promise is really about the story, style and design. So if the customer went to bed one night and thought, "man, I really hope somebody makes 'X' game," then you can sell it to them. And in fact, there's a lot of evidence that, we as gamers, have wanted [Borderlands]. And you asked me, in the case of Borderlands, whether it's going to work out; well, there's good evidence –and I know that a lot of us have wanted to make and play a game like this for a long time and I can see other people too.
It's really interesting, right – Bethesda, id, Gearbox – all touching this kind of look and feel, and we have this very distinct look and feel to it. And we didn't copy each other – we all started these projects at about the same time. And someone asked me what I thought about Avatar [and its similarities to Borderlands]; I mean James Cameron named his planet Pandora and corporations went there to mine the place... that's like what we did! And that's awesome! Can you believe that? James Cameron had some of the same ideas we had? Hells yeah! I'm gonna feel good about that!
IGN AU: Awesome! Thanks for your time, Randy.
Randy Pitchford: No problem!
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